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sclmlw's avatar

Not sure if the book addresses the theological roots for why Nicene Christianity rejects the LDS viewpoint as being "Christian". I couldn't tell from the ToC. It took me a long time to understand why a seemingly unrelated point about the Trinity should become such a strong sticking point for terminology and questioning a whole people's testimony of Jesus. I think most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS (hereafter LDS) see invocation of the trinity doctrine as a way to sneak in an unjustified exclusion of LDS from the "Jesus club", as though they were the ones with exclusive rights to define who gets to have a testimony of the Savior. This impression of willful exclusion is part of why I think many LDS get worked up about this topic. There's a sense of being unfairly excluded from a group to which we strongly feel we belong, even as we recognize we're a little different in some of our doctrinal points. But then again, who isn't? (Also, there's some incredulity/offense that Christians are denying our testimony of the risen Lord.)

I think both LDS and Nicene Christians could benefit from attempts at mutually understanding one another. However, since there are fewer LDS by far, the onus is on us to reach for understanding a little more. A little charity is warranted here. Understanding requires that we suspend our theological understanding/definitions for a minute so we can understand where our Christian brethren are coming from.

The reason the Nicene creed comes up is because it's literally at the heart of the issue. The Arian Heresy was/is seen as an attempt to redefine God. In an ex nihilo creation, what comes first? If, as Arians claim, it's the Father, and He creates the Son, then the Son isn't really God. He's subordinate to God, with perhaps a role in salvation, but as a created being he is distinct from God, who is uncreated. What do you call someone who thinks Jesus Christ is special, but is not truly God? Muslims teach exactly this doctrine, as do some religions who follow the New Testament tradition, but who do not see Jesus Christ as truly God. Can we all accept that someone who holds such a view should not be defined as a Christian? Is there a good metric we might use, other than engaging in long theological discussions, to tell who believes in the true divinity of Jesus Christ?

Enter the Nicene Creed.

Although the Nicene Creed seems difficult to parse for LDS readers, what's important isn't what it 'means' definitionally so much as what it's trying to state about the nature of Jesus Christ. To the Arians who say the Son must come after the Father, and therefore cannot be truly God, Nicene Christians proclaim that Jesus is not 'demoted' in their eyes. You're not going to pull a semantic trick and redefine Christ as 'lesser' because he's the Son. If the Father is the uncreated first mover, so too is the Son. And anyone who isn't willing to proclaim as much cannot be considered a Christian, because they don't believe that Jesus Christ is truly God.

Now look, there are many places here where an LDS observer will say, "But I don't agree with so many of these premises, to the point where none of this is even an issue for me!" Of course Jesus Christ is truly, fully God. If you don't believe in creation ex nihilo, and if you're read into LDS theology about the eternal nature of what other Christians might call the "soul", much of the subsequent analysis about an uncreated creator doesn't follow.

What's important to understand is that while the LDS tradition ENDS in the same place (with Jesus Christ as our God, Creator, and Savior), these two theologies have divergent starting points. The reason Nicene Christians point to the creed is because most of the New Testament-believing world has the same starting point as them, and if you diverge from this place, it's clear you've left Christianity. Because of this dynamic, it may not be helpful to try and lead a Nicene Christian from their starting point to our ending point, "... and that's why we're obviously Christians."

It may be helpful to employ terminology that helps clarify the distinction. I'm not sure what fits best, without invoking echoes of an Arian tradition that LDS theology totally rejects, but a few options I've heard include: non-Nicene Christians, non-Orthodox Christians, or even heretical Christians. The point is to concede something everyone already agrees on: the LDS tradition is distinct from the rest of Christianity because we follow a very different theology - especially as it relates to the Creation (and a number of assumptions that were introduced by the early Greek philosophical influence that is not found in the Bible). But our theology would as thoroughly reject an Arian assertion that Jesus is not "truly God" as would any Athenasian Christian.

Robert Starling's avatar

Hi, This is Robert. Thanks for thinking about my book. Anyone who would like to actually READ it can download a FREE pdf of the whole thing here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mddqWAbrtnJ7dtNUJagCJ-yULu61WS29/view?usp=sharing

If you do that, and read the Introduction, you'll see that I describe myself NOT as a "traditional" or "orthodox" (big or little "O") Christian, but as a Biblical follower of Christ who believes the same things as those who were "first called Christians at Antioch" believed. NOT a Greek philosophers's "triune god", NOT a closed canon of 66 books, NOT a "faith alone" salvation, and NOT a "patristic connection" to a 4th-century "church" that would not have been recognized by Peter, Paul, or my brothers and sisters in Antioch.

In my book I DO "contend for the faith once delivered to the Saints" without (I hope) being contentious. That same Gospel of "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism" has been RESTORED in these Latter-days, as part of the "restitution of all things" (Acts 3:21) that the author of Acts says MUST happen before the second coming of Christ.

A restoration was required because of the "falling away" or "great apostacy" that we're told in 2 Thess 2:3 MUST occur before the Lord's return. History shows us that the apostasy DID happen. "Mormonism" is not "traditional" or "historical/orthodox" Christianity, but it IS Biblical Christianity.

And to those "kindergarten Christians" who are content with the "milk" of the Gospel, what we have is "graduate level" Christianity. Like the three degrees of glory that Paul likened unto the sun, the moon, and the stars (1. Cor. 15:40), all believers in Jesus are "Christians", but what kind do you want to be?

The FULLNESS of the "good news" (gospel) that Jesus told his apostles to teach to "all the world" is today found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or as I call it - "Latter-day Christianity". Do you want to see how I make my case? Read the book.

(Questions? contact me at: starlingrd -at- msn dot c0m)

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