I suspect it's not, but I don't recall any data one way or the other. We're reading this book for the local ACX bookclub so perhaps someone else will have an insight on this.
"Here are the estimates of which women said yes, they would prefer to have more sex:"
Does that mean these women want more sex than they have, or more sex than others? That is, are conservative women, being lower on the chart, withholding sex, or are they more satisfied with their sex lives?
Also, if it's "want more sex than they have" it could just be a result of more conservatives getting married. It's widely known and little acknowledged that married people have more sex.
I do agree with you and the book that that probably isn't everything, and Sex being at the core of identity, a sacred ritual of self-affirmation, is an interesting development.
"He was the lead author on this study which claimed that children raised by a parent who had been in a same-sex relationship had worse outcomes than those raised by heterosexual parents."
This seems to me like a major red flag for credibility if his study concluded anything other than "we can't get a decent control group". Which I'm sure it didn't.
Not too long ago I finished Larry McMurtry's The Last Picture Show. It's well known for the 70's era movie made about it. The reality is sex is mostly a mystery to us. We don't talk about it much personally so we are can only glimpse it over time indirectly by things like tracking births back to conceptions, perhaps police reports for prostitution and public sex arrests, vintage pornography, and maybe the occasional personal diary that was quite frank that surfaces.
Putting these two things together I'm not sure the novel I read is any worse than any other source for comparing how we approached sex in, say, 1951 versus today. From what I get the least likely place you'd think sex would be cheap (highly Christian rural Texas town in 1951), sex was likely to be had pretty cheap if that was your priority. Of course standards and moores were different. Discreet affairs were tolerated. A mentally impaired boy was 'given' a chance with an older prostitute who was probably herself unwell to the amusement of almost all...today there'd be investigations, therapy and lots of introspection.
But I think more interestingly is that while sex has always been cheap for those who want it cheap, it's also been frustratingly out of reach for many people at many points in their lives who then gravitate to stories or fantasies about all the cheap sex other people are having.
Hence it never fails that books like this that talk about a 'sex recession' in their data nonetheless manage to find the supposedly misguided liberal woman (no doubt also young and attractive woman) who talks up her policy to never take more than 3 different men to bed every week.
I agree someone who is going to toss masturbation in with sex in his non-fiction book is simply asking for nonsense. Don't tell me for a moment he or anyone has reliable data on how often 19 yr old men masturbated in 1949 versus 2000 versus 2025 (or women for that matter). Even pornography is pretty loose here (I won't say anything about Sears Catalogues and National Geographic issues for those not in the know).
I'm also not really sure what to make of surveys of people today. For example: "Here are the estimates of which women said yes, they would prefer to have more sex:"
Ok but what are people hearing when they hear that question? Some people may hear and abstract question. "Do I want more sex in my life? Sure". Others may hear a judgemental question "Do I want more sex in my life in exchange for less of something else like "transcendent value to aspects of life"?". Others may hear "Do they want me to say I'm not happy with my husband?"
Something I think a serious conservative who wants to write on this should address (as well as any serious left inclined) is the total failure of everyone's predictions. We used to obsess over a single incident of nudity (recall Janet Jackson's 'wardrobe malfunction'). Yet the breakup of broadcast media into niche digital communities has meant that we mostly do not live in a sex drenched culture. Instead rather than worrying about a 70's hippie national orgie culture, we fret about 'sex recessions' and young people just not having much sex. The failure of a model should first indicate a need to dramatically rethink it. I don't expect most people over 30 writing on this topic to do that.
I think this is one of these cases where there are different arenas of selection. There's the genetic arena which is where we get our massive sex drive. But then there's the arena of cultural evolution where monogamy is selected for.
I forget where I read it (and I'm too lazy to ask an AI) but only a small fraction of societies/civilizations that have ever existed are primarily monogamous, but it turns out those that are are also the most successful civilizations.
The interview with the girl is very interesting. Do you know of any good data about whether first date
sex is good for relationship formation?
I suspect it's not, but I don't recall any data one way or the other. We're reading this book for the local ACX bookclub so perhaps someone else will have an insight on this.
Reading through, got tripped up here:
"Here are the estimates of which women said yes, they would prefer to have more sex:"
Does that mean these women want more sex than they have, or more sex than others? That is, are conservative women, being lower on the chart, withholding sex, or are they more satisfied with their sex lives?
Also, if it's "want more sex than they have" it could just be a result of more conservatives getting married. It's widely known and little acknowledged that married people have more sex.
Conservative women are more satisfied with the level of sex they're currently at.
He does mention that married people have more sex, but not in the context of these statistics, so you bring up an interesting potential confound.
Thanks.
I do agree with you and the book that that probably isn't everything, and Sex being at the core of identity, a sacred ritual of self-affirmation, is an interesting development.
"He was the lead author on this study which claimed that children raised by a parent who had been in a same-sex relationship had worse outcomes than those raised by heterosexual parents."
This seems to me like a major red flag for credibility if his study concluded anything other than "we can't get a decent control group". Which I'm sure it didn't.
Not too long ago I finished Larry McMurtry's The Last Picture Show. It's well known for the 70's era movie made about it. The reality is sex is mostly a mystery to us. We don't talk about it much personally so we are can only glimpse it over time indirectly by things like tracking births back to conceptions, perhaps police reports for prostitution and public sex arrests, vintage pornography, and maybe the occasional personal diary that was quite frank that surfaces.
Putting these two things together I'm not sure the novel I read is any worse than any other source for comparing how we approached sex in, say, 1951 versus today. From what I get the least likely place you'd think sex would be cheap (highly Christian rural Texas town in 1951), sex was likely to be had pretty cheap if that was your priority. Of course standards and moores were different. Discreet affairs were tolerated. A mentally impaired boy was 'given' a chance with an older prostitute who was probably herself unwell to the amusement of almost all...today there'd be investigations, therapy and lots of introspection.
But I think more interestingly is that while sex has always been cheap for those who want it cheap, it's also been frustratingly out of reach for many people at many points in their lives who then gravitate to stories or fantasies about all the cheap sex other people are having.
Hence it never fails that books like this that talk about a 'sex recession' in their data nonetheless manage to find the supposedly misguided liberal woman (no doubt also young and attractive woman) who talks up her policy to never take more than 3 different men to bed every week.
I agree someone who is going to toss masturbation in with sex in his non-fiction book is simply asking for nonsense. Don't tell me for a moment he or anyone has reliable data on how often 19 yr old men masturbated in 1949 versus 2000 versus 2025 (or women for that matter). Even pornography is pretty loose here (I won't say anything about Sears Catalogues and National Geographic issues for those not in the know).
I'm also not really sure what to make of surveys of people today. For example: "Here are the estimates of which women said yes, they would prefer to have more sex:"
Ok but what are people hearing when they hear that question? Some people may hear and abstract question. "Do I want more sex in my life? Sure". Others may hear a judgemental question "Do I want more sex in my life in exchange for less of something else like "transcendent value to aspects of life"?". Others may hear "Do they want me to say I'm not happy with my husband?"
Something I think a serious conservative who wants to write on this should address (as well as any serious left inclined) is the total failure of everyone's predictions. We used to obsess over a single incident of nudity (recall Janet Jackson's 'wardrobe malfunction'). Yet the breakup of broadcast media into niche digital communities has meant that we mostly do not live in a sex drenched culture. Instead rather than worrying about a 70's hippie national orgie culture, we fret about 'sex recessions' and young people just not having much sex. The failure of a model should first indicate a need to dramatically rethink it. I don't expect most people over 30 writing on this topic to do that.
Did you mean to say "involuntarily incelibate"?
I think this is one of these cases where there are different arenas of selection. There's the genetic arena which is where we get our massive sex drive. But then there's the arena of cultural evolution where monogamy is selected for.
I forget where I read it (and I'm too lazy to ask an AI) but only a small fraction of societies/civilizations that have ever existed are primarily monogamous, but it turns out those that are are also the most successful civilizations.
Do humans have a "massive sex drive", compared with other species? i guess it depends on the species.